Goods on major Russian e-commerce platforms like Wildberries and Ozon have increased in price by up to 30% following extensive Ukrainian drone strikes on logistics facilities.
I really struggle with your post. Yes, war is bad. And it would be great if humanity could live in peace. It would be great if Russia was a normal country trying to live in peace and striving for prosperity. But I feel that it is really blind to what really is happening: Russia attacked Ukraine, is commiting a genocide, is murdering civilians, stealing children, torturing and so on. So Ukraine has a right to defend itself from being occupied. Wildberries seems to be involved in military logistics and that makes their warehouses totally valid targets. Yeah, that is bad for all those Russian eCommerce sellers, but the take “War threatening the lives and livelihoods of civilians is a bad thing” is really blind to what really happening. “Stopping a country from murdering another countries civilians is a good thing” would be the better take
Wildberries seems to be involved in military logistics and that makes their warehouses totally valid targets.
Kind of. If Wildberries is actually involved in military logistics to a significant degree (rather than, say, a dozen or so soldiers who happened to buy rifles off it) then warehouses that are being used for that purpose are 100% valid military targets. That doesn’t mean all Wildberries warehouses are military targets, only ones with significant (compared to the size of the warehouse) supplies headed for the Russian army or that are regularly used in Russian logistics. For example if a warehouse contains rifles or drone parts for the Russian military then by all means bomb it. But, to put it bluntly, I find that very unlikely, so without real evidence (which the Ukrainian side has not yet provided) I’m more willing to believe that this is a domestic pressure campaign (i.e. terror bombing). If you find the Ukrainian statement credible then all power to you and we don’t actually disagree on much here; this is the possibility I addressed with “whether you believe the strikes are justified or not” and it’s one I can more or less accept. Compare to the other reply chain, which is arguing that terror bombing is okay when Ukraine is doing it.
However, whether the strikes themselves are justified is only tangential to my point. For example if you had a residential building with a weapons factory occupying half of it, it’d be 100% legal to bomb it, but the actual residential building being bombed would be unfortunate collateral damage. That’s the point I’m making here: At best the effects of the Wildberries bombings on the lives of regular people are unfortunate collateral damage, not something to be celebrated as you see people doing here and elsewhere. One can support Ukraine defending itself while having a modicum of sympathy for the innocent people whose lives are being negatively affected by that.
But, to put it bluntly, I find that very unlikely, so without real evidence (which the Ukrainian side has not yet provided) I’m more willing to believe that this is a domestic pressure campaign (i.e. terror bombing).
The evidence was right there on the website. They were selling f.e. military drone parts and military supplies. You can see the screenshots yourself. There is nothing secret here - you could buy a 10km spool of fiberglass and FPV drones and other military supplies.
Not sure why you are putting in doubt stuff that has been proven without any doubt. Click here: You can buy a 10km spool of fiberglass for your drone. Which is totally what you need for your special operation, but not as a civilian
Why would a Russian military supplier source the drones and glassfiber from some seller on “Amazon” instead of going directly to the source in China?
Honest question. A single soldier who needs these parts once in a while, sure. But a military supplier will need larger quantities and a reliable stream of parts.
Serhii Kuzan, chairman of the Ukrainian Security and Cooperation Centre, told the BBC that Wildberries was a “vital component” of Russian logistics, and that its website had been used by Russian volunteers to purchase military equipment including walkie-talkies, body armour and drone components. “The primary rationale for striking Wildberries’ warehouses is to disrupt Russian logistics and the supply of dual-use goods, critical electronics, sanctioned goods and the like to the Russian army and Russian arms manufacturers,” he said. “The collateral damage from such strikes could also have a serious impact on the Russian economy, as well as a psychological effect on Russian society and, likely, on continued support for the war.” Russia has targeted similar facilities in Ukraine since the start of the war, including its postal service and some electronics distributors.
So it looks like people bought the chinese stuff to supply people on the front. Which kind of makes sense - when your husband is serving on the front, you might want to buy him a helmet or supplies for his drone and if that is available on your Amazon, that’s great.
That stuff being sold on their website doesn’t answer the proportionality question imo. Is it a significant of their business or does it supply a significant portion of the military demand?
The argument of whether it’s needed or not for civilian use is pointless. There are private individuals in the USA and UK who own whole ass main battle tanks just for the fun of it. There are enough people out there who want to buy the real combat thing for that reason…
I find it quite suprising that Ukraine hasn’t managed to present quantitative proof that the attacks on civilian warehouses are justified from a purely military perspective. It can’t be that hard to show that say 1+% of the products fall in the military/dual use category, right?
It doesn’t matter. It proofs that Wildberries has military stuff in their warehouses, which makes them military targets. In a dictatorship that wages war all of that is available to the war machine. To take your example: If you own a main battle tank in the UK or USA, that makes your home a totally valid target, because the state can and will totally impound your tank for the war effort.
That’s not how proportionality works. Following your reasoning, it would be fine to use a nuke on Moscow to take out Putin and the millions of deaths would be an acceptable side effect…
There is a difference between bombing a warehouse that is also used for military logistics and nuking Moscow. So I really do not feel that you are arguing in good faith here
I think you’re not understanding the point I’m making which is that it’s up to Ukraine to show that there indeed is a difference between the two cases. If only a few shelves in the warehouse are for potential military use then it might come awefully close to the nuking Moscow example. If half the warehouse is for military use, it’s obviously a valid target.
Again, αfaik it’s currently unclear how close reality is to either of those extremes and it’s up to Ukraine to elaborate on that.
Dude, they had a “everything for special military operation” category on their fucking website full of military stuff. You still can find military stuff being sold from them. Ukraine has nothing more to prove here
If you own a main battle tank in the UK or USA, that makes your home a totally valid target, because the state can and will totally impound your tank for the war effort.
It, in fact, does not. Until the state actually impounds the tank or demonstrates intent that it will, the home with the tank is protected under international law.
I really struggle with your post. Yes, war is bad. And it would be great if humanity could live in peace. It would be great if Russia was a normal country trying to live in peace and striving for prosperity. But I feel that it is really blind to what really is happening: Russia attacked Ukraine, is commiting a genocide, is murdering civilians, stealing children, torturing and so on. So Ukraine has a right to defend itself from being occupied. Wildberries seems to be involved in military logistics and that makes their warehouses totally valid targets. Yeah, that is bad for all those Russian eCommerce sellers, but the take “War threatening the lives and livelihoods of civilians is a bad thing” is really blind to what really happening. “Stopping a country from murdering another countries civilians is a good thing” would be the better take
Kind of. If Wildberries is actually involved in military logistics to a significant degree (rather than, say, a dozen or so soldiers who happened to buy rifles off it) then warehouses that are being used for that purpose are 100% valid military targets. That doesn’t mean all Wildberries warehouses are military targets, only ones with significant (compared to the size of the warehouse) supplies headed for the Russian army or that are regularly used in Russian logistics. For example if a warehouse contains rifles or drone parts for the Russian military then by all means bomb it. But, to put it bluntly, I find that very unlikely, so without real evidence (which the Ukrainian side has not yet provided) I’m more willing to believe that this is a domestic pressure campaign (i.e. terror bombing). If you find the Ukrainian statement credible then all power to you and we don’t actually disagree on much here; this is the possibility I addressed with “whether you believe the strikes are justified or not” and it’s one I can more or less accept. Compare to the other reply chain, which is arguing that terror bombing is okay when Ukraine is doing it.
However, whether the strikes themselves are justified is only tangential to my point. For example if you had a residential building with a weapons factory occupying half of it, it’d be 100% legal to bomb it, but the actual residential building being bombed would be unfortunate collateral damage. That’s the point I’m making here: At best the effects of the Wildberries bombings on the lives of regular people are unfortunate collateral damage, not something to be celebrated as you see people doing here and elsewhere. One can support Ukraine defending itself while having a modicum of sympathy for the innocent people whose lives are being negatively affected by that.
The evidence was right there on the website. They were selling f.e. military drone parts and military supplies. You can see the screenshots yourself. There is nothing secret here - you could buy a 10km spool of fiberglass and FPV drones and other military supplies.
https://defence-ua.com/minds_and_ideas/poki_rashisti_tsinichno_rozpovidajut_pro_teroristichni_udari_po_logistichnim_tsentram_wildberries_marketplejs_prodovzhuje_zabezpechuvati_rosijsku_armiju-23727.html
Not sure why you are putting in doubt stuff that has been proven without any doubt. Click here: You can buy a 10km spool of fiberglass for your drone. Which is totally what you need for your special operation, but not as a civilian
https://www.wildberries.ru/catalog/0/search.aspx?search=g657a2
Why would a Russian military supplier source the drones and glassfiber from some seller on “Amazon” instead of going directly to the source in China?
Honest question. A single soldier who needs these parts once in a while, sure. But a military supplier will need larger quantities and a reliable stream of parts.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyxlm877p2o
So it looks like people bought the chinese stuff to supply people on the front. Which kind of makes sense - when your husband is serving on the front, you might want to buy him a helmet or supplies for his drone and if that is available on your Amazon, that’s great.
That stuff being sold on their website doesn’t answer the proportionality question imo. Is it a significant of their business or does it supply a significant portion of the military demand?
The argument of whether it’s needed or not for civilian use is pointless. There are private individuals in the USA and UK who own whole ass main battle tanks just for the fun of it. There are enough people out there who want to buy the real combat thing for that reason…
I find it quite suprising that Ukraine hasn’t managed to present quantitative proof that the attacks on civilian warehouses are justified from a purely military perspective. It can’t be that hard to show that say 1+% of the products fall in the military/dual use category, right?
It doesn’t matter. It proofs that Wildberries has military stuff in their warehouses, which makes them military targets. In a dictatorship that wages war all of that is available to the war machine. To take your example: If you own a main battle tank in the UK or USA, that makes your home a totally valid target, because the state can and will totally impound your tank for the war effort.
That’s not how proportionality works. Following your reasoning, it would be fine to use a nuke on Moscow to take out Putin and the millions of deaths would be an acceptable side effect…
There is a difference between bombing a warehouse that is also used for military logistics and nuking Moscow. So I really do not feel that you are arguing in good faith here
I think you’re not understanding the point I’m making which is that it’s up to Ukraine to show that there indeed is a difference between the two cases. If only a few shelves in the warehouse are for potential military use then it might come awefully close to the nuking Moscow example. If half the warehouse is for military use, it’s obviously a valid target.
Again, αfaik it’s currently unclear how close reality is to either of those extremes and it’s up to Ukraine to elaborate on that.
Dude, they had a “everything for special military operation” category on their fucking website full of military stuff. You still can find military stuff being sold from them. Ukraine has nothing more to prove here
https://militarnyi.com/en/news/wildberries-removes-svo-tag-drone-attacks/
It, in fact, does not. Until the state actually impounds the tank or demonstrates intent that it will, the home with the tank is protected under international law.
I would generalize it a bit more to include likeliness of being used, but generally I agree with you.